| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Travis Sorokie
Junior Member
USA
326 Posts |
 Posted - 02/22/2008 : 13:35:39
|
Tony---
No real point, other than that BIR is not running a Bracket III class this season it appears...and note the Bracket indexes (which have changed from seasons past).
One thing I will say positive about BIR...they TRY to accomidate EVERYONE by running the NHRA Classes during a Bracket Event weekend. However, the entry fee/payout is out of wack and a major reason I know S/SS is not well attended. Speaking from my experience the past few years in S/SS the ONLY way you can have a decent pay weekend is at a USA race weekend. Where the USA kicks in money to the purse.
And since I'm on the subject of S/SS racing...how exactly is that going to work on these 2-day race weekends??? We qualify to set a 'sportsman' elimination ladder. Qualify off of 1 run for the entire weekend??? Run the same guy/gal 1st round both days???
See ya in Staging!!! |
Edited by - Travis Sorokie on 02/22/2008 13:45:25 |
 |
|
|
Lenny5160
Junior Member
USA
278 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2008 : 14:24:47
|
Bracket III = Sportsman so they are still there. Good catch on the ET break changes. It is nice to see a little overlap in Pro and Sportsman for those that run very close to 13.00. I have never run Bracket III/Sportsman, but for as long as I can remember it has KILLED me that they pay the same entry fee as the other bracket classes.
Isn't it kinda funny that the entry fees are set in stone for the year but payout is still a mystery?
Tony Leonard |
|
|
|
Travis Sorokie
Junior Member
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2008 : 14:41:35
|
I need to quit now, otherwise I'm going to have a Stroke/Heartattack before the season even starts...
See ya in Staging!!! |
|
|
|
Lenny5160
Junior Member
USA
278 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2008 : 15:00:09
|
Come on, Travis! We need to keep generating activity (positive or negative) so more people hop in. There have to be more people than us that spend 50% of each day browsing racing forums.
It is starting to look like one of our old email chains.
Tony Leonard |
|
|
|
Travis Sorokie
Junior Member
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2008 : 15:27:26
|
One last rant, then I'm going into Internet Racer Forum Rehab---
$80 per/entry is fine---IF you get more than 90 cars pay $1500win/$1000R-U, pay down to 2nd round winner.
$110 for S/SS, Super Classes is fine as well...but, MUST pay $1000win/$750 R-U REGARDLESS of Class Size and pay down to 2nd round winner!!!
The $$$ is there, heck just use the $200/$275 Reserve Parking Fund.
Cut the over-head! We don't need Security guys running up and down the pits in white trucks, doing what seems to me---NOTHING. If BIR is worried about security perhaps add it after racing hours, but not during the day. In 15 years of racing (11 states covered), I have YET to have an issue where I required Security.
I DO like the way Tech has been run the past few seasons at BIR. One good Tech your 1st race there and your good for the season.
Starting Line/Staging Crew GREAT JOB as well. Some confusion at times, but you will have that with 400+ racers. The only thing as a driver I would like to see is consistent starting line prep. Don't be affraid to scrape the starting line and prep the whole track between rounds.
Racers---yes, racers haven't helped matters at times. Get to the lanes when called (I'm NO EXCEPTION). Be READY to race when the line starts moving! Meaning in your car/dragster, equipment on, air pressure in slicks set, dial-ins made.
If your running off a ladder, pair up with your opponent--flip a coin for lanes, then buckle up and get ready to race. We as racers can do a lot more to make things go more efficient.
Off to Rehab...
See ya in Staging!!! |
|
|
|
andyschmall
Junior Member
245 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2008 : 17:40:05
|
I guess it's time for a kid to get involved haha... It seems like everyone wants to get rid of security (and they should) but I think that there are MANY other positions that are way over staffed.
Rock Falls has to be one of the most efficient tracks in the midwest and their staff can be counted on two hands. The biggest problem I see with the Brainerd staff starts in the staging lanes. The people in the back of the staging lanes do nothing but piss people off. By now, Brainerd should know how many lanes they need for classes and just call everyone to those lanes knowing that they will be full. Why should someone who comes up to the staging lanes first have to run last because lane 1 wasn't totally full but someone who comes up later ends up in the front of the line and has to run first. It's pretty hard to be ready when as soon as you get to the front of the lane you get paired. Seems backwards to me...
As for my second "issue", there isn't a big dollar race anywhere that doesn't have buybacks. It's not for the racers benefit. Tracks hook people with the big payouts and are able to pay them with buyback money. Lets look at the numbers. On an average weekend Brainerd has 80 cars in bracket 1 and 2 (it's probably more). We'll just say that 80% of them buyback which would be 64 cars (32 in each class). The cost to buyback at Byron on their $2,500 to win combo race is $40. I think thats it; they took the flyer off their website. So the track would collect $2,560 on buybacks and would only have to payout an extra 1,500 from their normal bracket payout. So the track gets to pocket an extra $1,000. It's too bad that Brainerd will probably never be able to have buybacks because they would have to run pretty late on Sunday... Bracket only weekend anyone???
Reasonable solution? Find a place to live between Greak Lakes and Byron...
Thanks for reading my novel,
Andy Schmall |
|
|
|
Lenny5160
Junior Member
USA
278 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2008 : 17:57:41
|
Welcome aboard, Andy! Now you just need to fill your schedule with computer classes so you can keep up with me and Sorokie.
In my opinion if there is anything that our local tracks get correct it is NO BUYBACKS!!! I do have a problem with making people run eliminations first thing Sunday morning without a time run OR buybacks though. It makes first round a relative crapshoot, then the real race begins from there. It also drives up the cost of racing by making a weather station/et predictor pretty much mandatory.
We do need to expect to pay a higher entry fee/purse ratio when compared to tracks offering buybacks. The track purses I posted earlier in this thread are fair game for comparison as those tracks do not offer buybacks.
You are correct on your comments about Rock Falls. There are many opinions of the place but it is definitely efficient and there are no surprises with the program.
Tony Leonard |
|
|
|
FastnFurious
Junior Member
130 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2008 : 01:51:35
|
Well Tony I guess I have to disagree with you on the Buyback issue. Buybacks create a win - win situation for the track as well as the racer if implimented properly. (Win the buyback round win your money back). Buybacks can boost payout at smaller efficiently run tracks with small car counts to a competitive level. I heard that one of our local tracks offered buybacks at a recent race and didn't even adjust the payout. How stupid is that. Stupid track owner or stupid racers for participating. Racers do have a choice on which tracks they spend their money. Racers should be aware of a good or bad deal at the track they choose to support. I think there are just too many racers around here who just don't care. Take for example - BIR Oct/07 Rained out after 1st round. Bir decided to give all car entries 1/2 there entry back whether they won or lost - if they had the receipt. They made more money not running the race. Super class racers paid $55 for not racing, Trophy paid $20 for not racing - that sounds fair. The problem is with the racers allowing this to happen. Again nobody cares.
Tony, as for your no buybacks stand, you gave the Maple Grove payout as an example. In Super pro they're paying the winner over 28 times the $70 entry. They don't need buybacks. Looking at Super Pro, based on 80 entries (payout listed was for 7 rounds) they would collect $5600 and payout $4800(over 85%) for a gain of only $800. Obviously it costs quite a bit more then that to operate a race track. The question we should be asking ourselves is if this track can do it why can't BIR? Most of us already know the answer. Anyways I would agree that BIR shouldn't need buybacks to enhance the purse with the car count they already get. As for the Rock that's a different story, paying $80 for $750 to win $300 runner-up is pretty poor. Rock doesn't have the car count to pay big money. I think if the rock adopted the combo format with buybacks we would be racing for 2k on Sundays. Wait, I forgot about the starting line. Oh well it was just a thought!
Joe Schmall |
|
|
|
Lenny5160
Junior Member
USA
278 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2008 : 08:46:43
|
Buybacks are the marijuana of bracket racing. They seem relatively harmless, but it is a slippery slope from there to the hard drugs of racing.
Buybacks really got going down south as a way for, as you say, tracks to support a decent purse with a low car count. Then the racers wanted higher purses so the tracks cut out most of the round money. Now it has gotten to the point that you can race for $5K every weekend in North Carolina for a $40 entry fee, but you can buy back first AND second round if needed. So by third round, no cars have been eliminated everybody is broke. The winner of the $5K actually brings home $3K because the purse was split 3 rounds earlier to create some round money. If the track had advertised a $3K race with good round money, nobody would have shown up because the track down the street is having a top-heavy $5K race. It gets crazy in a hurry!
What buybacks do is increase the cost of racing for the racer. You said it yourself; too many racers around here just don't care when it comes to the economics of the program. A lot of racers are pretty casual about their racing. They don't want a more expensive option. For a standard points series race, I am more in favor of the Norwalk model. Payout is pretty modest, but round money starts first round and entry is $30!
Another thing our local tracks do well is distribute the purse. I have never been involved in a split, which is a good indicator that the purse structure is good. The only problem with BIR's economics is that the entry fee is WAY too high for everyone.
Tony Leonard |
|
|
|
steve stockton
New Member
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2008 : 10:28:43
|
I would have to agree with joe on the buyback deal. IF it's 1st round only and you can get your money back if you win that round, I think it's a good deal. It costs too much to travel someplace and only have one shot at going rounds. But at the same time when there is 1st and 2nd round buybacks, you can win 4 or 5 rounds and end up with nothing if they pay from the top down.
I don't think it's too hard for anyone to see that the car count is going down everywhere. It needs to be more affordable for it to make any sense for someone who doesn't win at all to show up every week. The guys that are in it for the money need the others to get a decent car count and then pay better. If norwalk can do it, why can't any place around here come close? |
|
|
|
andyschmall
Junior Member
245 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2008 : 12:04:26
|
We had it... Cedar Falls ran the perfect two day program but when they scheduled some of their races over Brainerd not many Minnesota racers showed up so they cancelled it. Rock Falls won't resort to having buybacks and a higher payout until Corda starts losing (more) money. Hopefully Cedar Falls can make this years payout work so we all have some where to race!
Andy Schmall |
|
|
|
Lenny5160
Junior Member
USA
278 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2008 : 13:22:34
|
When racers had that choice and went to BIR, what does that say about MN racers?
I loved that CFR program as much as anybody (and supported it full-time) but the same big-buck action that drew racers from MN, WI, and IL also drove off a lot of the Iowa locals that either weren't that serious or just couldn't afford it. That is why I advocate a lower entry/no-buyback program for the regular points races to keep it affordable, then throw in an occasional big-buck race for those that choose to race that way.
There really isn't any new blood getting into the sport. If we drive away racers we already have, it will all be over pretty quickly.
Tony Leonard |
Edited by - Lenny5160 on 02/23/2008 13:56:51 |
|
|
|
FastnFurious
Junior Member
130 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 23:33:20
|
Tony, what's an affordable lower entry/no buyback program? I think we already have it around here - it's called trophy racing. Also please define big bucks. Is it 1k, 2k, 5k, 10k? What dollar amount entry/payout would you recommend for regular points races? Actually I don't think entries and payouts have kept pace with all of the other racing expenses. As for your statement "The only problem with BIR's economics is that the entry fee is WAY too high for everyone." Seventeen years ago the Super Pro entry was $50 with $700 to win. Last year the entry was $80 with $1000 to win and 3rd round loser paying $75 (that is only if you show up). Now that sounds fairly decent until you factor in all of the other fees and frustrations you have to pay for. Now Rock is also $80 with $40 third round money. Grove Creek is at $75. Are all these too high? Now what I'm really trying to figure out is why you are anti-buybacks. Come see me next time your at the track and I'll give you my "Top 10 Reasons Why Buybacks Are The GREATEST"
Joe Schmall |
|
|
|
steve stockton
New Member
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 07:28:28
|
| I think Tony is referring to the fact that almost everywhere else in the country you can race for the same kind of money we do for what it cost to run trophy here or less. I don't think we can expect tracks to raise the payouts enough to come close to keeping up with other expenses, unless of course you can get 15000 spectators at a bracket race! |
|
|
|
Lenny5160
Junior Member
USA
278 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 10:09:35
|
Steve's got my point. See the Norwalk model for what I would call "local bracket racing Utopia."
The definition of big-bucks racing will vary by region, but I suppose a good indicator will be "when the entry fee prevents the casual - I just like racing my fast car - guy from entering" or "guys start travelling from outside the normal circle to attend."
Why do I hate buybacks? I don't, really. I love them when I need to use one, and have won a $5K race off a buyback. But they are NOT good for the sport.
Look at all the big-buck series that have come and gone. The longest-running ones out there: Tenn-Tuck and Florida Winter Series. Common thread: no buybacks. I think Moroso may have introduced buybacks this year but they weren't there the first 25 years and that race is going downhill quickly by many accounts.
The last couple of years have given me a whole new perspective on the economics of our sport. In 2001 I had my career going and was still living with mom and dad, chasing dollars all over the Midwest. Had the time of my life and didn't save a nickel. That lasted about 3 years and then real life set in. I think I love this sport as much as anybody (just count my posts on this and other forums) and take it pretty seriously. The problem is, I can't afford to do it anymore! I have a pretty sweet gig; I have a decent stake in the dragster and trailer but don't kick in for any ongoing costs. I can drive Dad's car anytime I want to. If I do go to the track, I can usually do so without contributing to towing costs or even race fuel. My wife and I both make good money, paid 'cost' for our new but average home and have no car payments. All that considered, I STILL can only afford a handful of races per year and I am one of the die-hards!
So now I manage to come up with $150 to make a trip to Cedar Falls. Good for me! Oh, wait Honey, I'm gonna need another $100 cash in case I need to buy back. OK, I'll keep it a little more economical and stay close to home. Oh wait, I'm going to need about $200 no matter where I go. Guess I'll stay home and play in a softball tournament instead.
Compare that to a Norwalk scenario. I am pretty sure I could come up with $30 to go racing, and would even do so in a street car. When I brought my wife's TrailBlazer to Rock Falls last year, I really wanted to give it a shot in Bracket 2. I was confident I could at least make it interesting for somebody, but I wasn't willing to risk $80 to find out!
Joe, when your generation retires from racing, the sport will die. I will be 30 years old in a couple weeks and I am still one of the "young punks" out there. Anybody younger than me is the child of another racer, as I am. Nobody is getting in. Why would they? Making racing too expensive for the people that are already hooked will only accelerate bracket racing's demise. Bucks racing has it's place but there also needs to be a cheaper outlet for it. Trophy is cheaper, but still WAY more expensive than it should be.
Tony Leonard |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Reserved Parking
